Episode 23 - How Discussing Death Can Enrich Family Relationships with Alyson Jones

Feb 28

In this week's episode, Nicole and Greg engage in a compelling discussion with Alyson Jones, a renowned therapist, educator, and bestselling author. Alyson shares her extensive experience in therapy, focusing on family dynamics, separation, divorce, grief, and legacy planning. The conversation highlights the importance of building resilient families, navigating grief, and fostering open discussions about death and financial matters. Alyson emphasizes transparency in estate planning to mitigate family conflicts and underscores the value of therapy in managing life's significant transitions.

Transcript:

Nicole 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to your Estate Matters with your hosts, my colleague Greg Brennand and myself, Nicole Garton of Heritage Trust.

Greg 00:00:09 Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy.

Nicole 00:00:16 If it's the state related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow.

Greg 00:00:34 With us today on Your Estate Matters is Alyson Jones. Alyson is a highly respected therapist, educator, business owner, and bestselling author. She speaks in lectures across North America and is the clinical director of Alyson Jones and Associates, where she leads an innovative professional team of therapists. She has presented at numerous professional conferences and consulted with provincial health, legal, education services, social services and educational agencies. Alison is a family therapist, parent coordinator, mediator, collaborative law, divorce coach and child specialist. Alison has over 30 years experience in the field of individual, couple, family and child therapy, drawing on a background in parent education, developmental psychology, and family systems.

Greg 00:01:19 Alyson has assisted many clients and families with personal growth, reducing conflict and navigating transitions. Alyson was an adjunct faculty member at Adler University for several years, and is highly involved in both legal education and psychological training for professionals in many fields. She has appeared numerous times on CTV Morning Live and is regularly featured in the media. Sharing her extensive knowledge around the fields of mental health, parenting, family dynamics and conflict resolution. Alyson, thanks for being with us today to talk about therapy and families. Tell us about yourself and how you became a therapist, business owner, and leader in your field.

Alyson 00:02:03 How I became a therapist was a long story and a long time ago, but I've been in the field for 33 years, which, yes, is sort of aging myself a little bit. But I always wanted to be of assistance and do something that had meaning. And I've been very blessed to be in a field where I get to do that. And I worked for many years as a therapist, and I was actually I always tell the story that I wanted to be a couples therapist, and then all the couples that I was working with got divorced.

Alyson 00:02:31 So I was like a really bad couples therapist, apparently. And then I thought, okay, I'm going to go into divorce and separation and actually help these people do this with some grace and dignity. And so that's how I really did move into the field of divorce and separation and ended up starting my own company, my business, and brought in a group of associates where we serve families, children, and of course, individuals, adults as well, but particularly around any sort of life transitions that are going on.

Nicole 00:03:01 You wrote an award winning book more A New Philosophy for Exceptional Living. So tell us about this philosophy and how our listeners can apply it to their lives.

Alyson 00:03:11 Well it's actually quite simple and it's something I really try to examine my practice because I had a pretty successful practice and it seemed to be helping people, and I was like, what are the essence of what I'm doing here? And that's when I sort of thought of the whole more concept, the idea it's actually stands for movement, opportunity, reality and exception.

Alyson 00:03:32 And so whatever the situation that is in front of us, you know what needs to move? What is the opportunity that's in there? What are the reality checks that we have to deal with, which is the part people don't always like to deal with is the reality checks. But if you do that combination, you can have an exceptional outcome. And by exceptional I mean, you know, something unique and different. And so I try to apply that philosophy in all the work that I do, but I try to apply it in my own life as well. You know, how do we get more out of the situation? And I certainly don't mean more stuff. I mean really more meaning, more movement, more opportunity.

Greg 00:04:13 So you have a lot of experience in helping to successfully guide families through separation and divorce. What advice do you have for our listeners about building strong and resilient families?

Alyson 00:04:24 I think there's a lot that can be discussed in that area. You know, resiliency only comes through lived experience.

Alyson 00:04:33 And one of the things, because I've been doing parent education for a long time, one of the things I always really have to encourage parents around is that you you have to let your children fall. You have to let your children fail in order for them to learn to get up again. And unfortunately, sometimes, and I understand I'm a parent and you want to dive in there and you want to cushion the fall or you want to stop them before they do fall. But the reality is that that's the only way they're going to learn to get back up again. And so it is something where we can't protect our children from lived experiences. We have to allow that. We have to give them the space and be beside them, encouraging them, not just getting in there and blocking those experiences. Unfortunately, too many parents these days want to get in there and do the fight for their kids. And although it's great to know you have the backing of your parents and they are always a safe place, it can actually rob you of experiences that you need to have.

Alyson 00:05:38 So resiliency is something that's very interesting. It's a word we bounce around and we really like the idea of it, but the reality of it is hard. Resiliency only comes through having hard life experiences. And that's how we learn. We learn so many skills. And I'm a strong believer that, you know, if we allow those experiences and every time all of us can relate to those times we've been knocked down. And then when we get back up again and we brush off our shoulders and on we go. Often those are where the opportunities are. Those are where the hidden things are for us to learn and gleam and, you know, apply to our life. So we learn how to adapt. We learn new skills, all sorts of things. So I really am a strong believer in that in regard to, you know, some of the work I do around divorce or transitions, even loss and grief. Right, because that's one of the hardest knocks in the world, is that you learn to be in that feeling, be in that motion, but still work through it and keep moving forward.

Nicole 00:06:45 So just like a divorce, aging and death are difficult life transitions for people. So what tips do you have about how people can navigate grief and regain a sense of purpose in their lives after such loss.

Alyson 00:06:59 That's interesting because way back when, when I, you know, did my graduate school, my whole study was on grief, which kind of makes sense that it led me into divorce and separation, because there's definitely a lot of grief in that, but also just grief of losing a loved one or, you know, aging, losing our friends, all of those things. Right. And I've been very blessed to work with people that are grieving in a variety of different ways. And I think grief is not a problem to be solved. Unfortunately, sometimes in our society, people approach it in that way. It's like it's a problem to be solved. It's I've got to get through it and I've got to get to this spot. Learning to accept the different feelings that come with it, learning to be in it.

Alyson 00:07:40 We can't rush through it. And it's something that will come and go. It is like waves and learning to, you know, understand that with grief, if we didn't value the things that our life, if we didn't value the people in our lives. If we didn't value those relationships, then we wouldn't have grief. It is the beauty and the cost of having relationships with people that you love is that you will have grief, and I think we just have to accept it more. We have to make it part of our more common conversations. It's not something that's being hidden over here, tucked in the corner, and that we just want to not look at because it makes us uncomfortable. It's actually something that is telling us how much we love or care for somebody, or how much something has had meaning for us.

Nicole 00:08:28 So I find being in the business of estates and transition as death itself is still such a taboo topic in our society, and it's almost like there's this huge societal denial of what is something that is going to be a universal experience.

Nicole 00:08:47 And I think that's one of the reasons why half of Canadians have apparently done absolutely no planning is partly we procrastinate, you know, things, but I think nobody wants to face sort of existential questions of mortality and things like that. But isn't there a philosophy where you can think about life when you constantly think about death, because it allows you to appreciate what you have now or the finitude of our lives? Like, how do you help families that are coming to terms with those issues or have conversations that are still so taboo?

Alyson 00:09:21 This is what's wonderful about the show that you're doing here. We're having these conversations, and these conversations are being led by people that are dealing with these things, and hopefully we can open those doors so people can talk more readily and easily about this. But it is sort of like you're right in the sense that, you know, talking about death is still this big taboo. And I think it's something we need to work on changing, because if we didn't have a shelf life here, we wouldn't appreciate and enjoy.

Alyson 00:09:54 It's like, if every day was Christmas, we wouldn't enjoy Christmas, right? Right. Like it's life is this beautiful gift. And the fact that it has an end date makes us pay attention. Hopefully. No. Of course we get into the mundane and that happens, but things sometimes propel us to look at it and look at the bigger picture. But I'm a strong believer in that we have to kind of normalize death more, and even in the way we talk about it. You know, I tend to be a person who says, you know, I'm really sad that that person died, as opposed to saying, I'm really sad that that person passed. Now, I try to respect other people's comfort levels, but the reality is we do kind of have to name it so we can discuss it. It is a hard thing, but it's also makes us measure the value of our relationships. Right? Like, my mom is getting elderly now, right? And I think a lot about how I want to really spend time with her.

Alyson 00:10:51 And I value her. I've always valued her, but 20 years ago it was a different experience. Now I just want to savor that experience and I just want to celebrate that relationship.

Nicole 00:11:04 So we've known each other professionally for years working with families and conflicts. And, you know, isn't there saying that a lot of the conflict families are experiencing, where the conflict seems to be continuing longer than it should be, or of a higher intensity, that often it is unresolved grief that people maybe they're not ready to let go of that relationship for whatever reason, so they perpetuate the conflict. So there's still an interaction like, how can we help people that maybe aren't recognizing those patterns?

Alyson 00:11:38 That is an excellent point, because I believe that to be true in so many ways, and in particular around divorce and separation, where one party or sometimes both, just won't let go of the relationship. And we always talk about, you know, the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is ambivalence. Even if people move from this love place and now they're in this hate place, they're still engaged in a very intense level of relationship with that person.

Alyson 00:12:07 That person still has an enormous impact upon them. And so I really do believe and in the work that I've done, I really try to guide people and to recognize their grief. And part of recognizing grief is getting out of the, you know, just villainize the other person and honoring what you did have, honoring what you did lose, right? Honoring what that relationship did do for you. Sometimes we have to move backwards a little bit before we can move forwards. And I don't mean getting stuck back there, and I'm not a person that's big about getting stuck in the back story. But if we don't pay attention to the grief that's there because like in an example of a divorce, you know, there was a reason those people got married. There was a reason that they celebrated and that needs to still be honored. And then if people can move through those feelings and become more conscious of them, then they can be more conscious in how they move forward now, and particularly if they're children involved, because we'd like them to be consciously co-parenting as opposed to be reactively in the past, where they're not even conscious of it, and making decisions based on emotions that are way in the past.

Nicole 00:13:20 So in a pivot a little bit, and a lot of what Greg and I do is helping people transition wealth on death or manage their wealth if they're incapable. But while there's a concept of wealth that's more holistic and that it can be not just financial, but it can be relationships, it can be the knowledge that you have. It can be the impact that you leave philanthropically or the values or the legacy. And so a lot of the work that we've done together is restructuring families in conflict, and then mitigating and managing people that stay stuck in conflict. Those are those unresolved grief people. Or maybe they've had trauma. But to think about it in a proactive way, what are some ways if you're thinking about building a legacy and a strong family or values for the future? I think you talked about resilience with kids, about having them do hard things, fail or letting them fall. But are there some other intentional steps that we can take to build strong families and have our values continue on after our mortality?

Alyson 00:14:23 Well, I think and I think this is really important.

Alyson 00:14:25 And like I said, as we normalize talking about life and death and transitions, we want to look at, see, one of the mistakes I think people make a lot. And I'm sure you folks see this in your work a lot is it's almost like sometimes when they're creating their legacy or they're looking at it, they keep it like secret. They're not discussing it. It's not including the people. There's not a common vision. It's almost like, okay, I have maybe built up this wealth now and I want some sort of legacy, but I'm tucking it back here and then there's all these odd little steps. It's almost like a puzzle that you have to figure out once it comes to you. Right? As the person who is maybe charged to carry on that legacy. And I think that really needs to change. I would love to see more estate planning with family, with the group, where it's more transparent and people are actually discussing it and even interviewing. What would you like your legacy to be? You know, if this is your vision of this money, you might be leaving me or this whatever it is like, what would you like me to do with it? And having that in a much more open conversation, but because people still have this discomfort and also I think sometimes it can almost get caught up while it does, I'm sure, get caught up in the power dynamics in the family, right? Where, you know, if I reveal this or this person might be getting more than this or, you know, and it can actually play people off.

Alyson 00:15:53 And I've certainly seen that. It's an interesting thing because working along in divorce and separation, it also where I've also done a lot of work, is sometimes in exactly this area where maybe the matriarch or patriarch of a family has died, and now the family is trying to unfold this, and there's so many familial issues that arise during this time. But if this was done in a more transparent way, where people were involved and discussions were had, I don't think we'd see sometimes the fallout that we see in families later on. But I do believe and I know for myself personally with my children, I've always tried to weave that into the conversations of our life. I've included my children in talking about our choices, our financial situation, our wealth, and I wanted to inspire them in their adults now to be thinking in the same way about what investments they wanted to make, what was their legacy they want. And so the earlier we can start those conversations in a family, the better. It's when we've never had them and it's way, way at the end.

Alyson 00:16:59 And we do know, and I'm sure you guys know better than anybody. Sometimes if there's considerable wealth left, that can be when it's the most difficult and people can just swirl and twirl on these family dynamics that were never addressed before that.

Nicole 00:17:16 So I just want to talk about money because a lot of the conflict has been parenting, but there's so much conflict around money and separation and divorce. And certainly the contentious estate is where we are doing it. But it's so interesting because money is a tool, but it seems like it's got an energy or a force field of itself or these families seem to get, I don't know, trapped in like, it seems like it has an energy or a thing in and of itself. Like what are your thoughts about how we can normalize that or try to manage what happens in families getting really stuck in conflict around it.

Alyson 00:17:51 And money does have its own energy. And you know it's true, right? I mean, I've certainly seen that over the years. But again, I think by educating, by shifting the way we talk about money, by having more open conversations.

Alyson 00:18:08 Because the other thing, remember I talked about, you know, you never talk about death. Well, the second thing you don't ever talk about is money, right? And so, you know, here we are in this circumstance right now talking about, oh my goodness, death and money. Right. And a lot of people have a lot of history about money and financial things that they're not even aware of how much it drives them. So I kind of believe in it aligns extremely well with my field of counseling, is that I think we kind of have to unfold that part, too. Money is part of the family dynamics, right? So it's not just looking at your emotions, it's what are your emotions towards how money was handled in your family. And if you're partnering with somebody, how was it handled in their family? And now how do you guys want to consciously manage it together? That's the part is we just haven't been particularly open or conscious about it. But I think having these conversations is the way to do it.

Alyson 00:19:04 There's no right or wrong, but it's certainly a folk strong feelings. My experience has been, too, that there's sort of a sweet spot when it comes to money, right, where people have enough money and if they have enough money, you know, they can leave quite a meaningful and fulfilled life and you have enough room to do some of the things that you want to do, but you still have to have effort and make sacrifice for it, right? Which people when you make effort, you actually value things even more, right? But when you don't have enough money, or sometimes when you have too much money, right? This one makes you put you not enough money, put you in that survival mode, that place of fear all the time. This one, you know, having too much money. Sometimes people don't always put the effort. They don't have the value. They don't feel that they've necessarily earned something in the way that you feel. So I think it's sort of trying to find what your sweet spot is.

Alyson 00:19:59 That part where you can feel, you know, some security but still feel that you know your choices and how you manage it has a benefit to you in your life right now.

Greg 00:20:12 Alyson, any final tips to leave with our listeners?

Alyson 00:20:16 I think that the tips would be along the way of like like I said, I think the theme that we've been talking about is appropriate transparency. Right. Like you know we don't need to there's things in it's fine to keep things private and personal. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think appropriate transparency. I think the idea of grief, whether it goes along the river of divorce and separation or estate matters, that we look and examine grief and the feelings that go with it and that we try to look for whatever situation is in front of us that we conduct ourselves. You know, I ask myself at the end, did I show some grace there? Did I conduct myself with dignity? And you know what? If the answer is no. I try to go back and clean it up a bit and say I'm sorry or whatever it is, but if the answer is yes, then I'm kind of like, okay, that was the best I could do.

Alyson 00:21:11 I have a little saying and the saying is, do your best and then get out of the way. And what I mean by that is do your best, but you can't control all the other factors. But you can manage that part.

Nicole 00:21:23 So how can our listeners find you to learn more?

Alyson 00:21:26 We have a my website which is Alyson Jones dot CA, and that's my name, Alyson Jones. So it's easy, but it's Alyson Jones dot CA it's all one word Alyson Jones dot CA or they're welcome to call our office which is 604-926-6665. That's 604-926-6665.

Nicole 00:21:52 Amazing. Thank you so much.

Alyson 00:21:54 Thank you.

Nicole 00:21:55 This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice.

Greg 00:22:17 Whether you are planning your own estate or you're acting as executor for somebody else's heritage, trust can help partner with Heritage Trust to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy.

Nicole 00:22:28 If you would like more information about Heritage Trust, please visit our website at Heritage Trust Company RCA.

Greg 00:22:41 This podcast is produced by Podfather Creative.